Posts by jonathan dough

73

Moshe received proof of a spiritual afterlife in 1999

by moshe in

i have posted this experience of mine before- it's time to resurrect it again.. in 1999 i was in bed asleep and i had a dream- my father and i were shoping at a clothing store called fazios, that i hadn't been inside since i was a boy (closed for many years).

we were looking at some denim overhalls and in walks my mother and brother ( she died in 1991 and my brother had died five months previously).

they told my dad, it's time to go.

jonathan dough

Rachel cannot be non-existent as her voice is heard in Ramah: “Thus says the Lord, “A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no more (Jeremiah 31:15, ESV). Ramah is “a village about five miles north of Jerusalem, where Rachel was buried (1 Samuel 10, 2). Rachel is said to mourn for her children since she was the ancestress of Ephraim, the chief of the northern tribes. Matthew 2:18 applies this verse to the slaughter of the innocent by Herod” (NAB notes, 31-15).

And the great prophet Ezekiel was instructed by Almighty God to lament the wicked of Egypt destined for the pit of the nether world. A place in Sheol “shall be made them for all their hordes” (Ezekiel 32:20, NAB). These Egyptian hordes cannot be non-existent because “from the midst of the nether world the mighty warriors shall speak to Egypt: “Whom do you excel in beauty? Come down, you and your allies, lie with the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword” (vv. 20-21). Those that go down to the pit are not only conscious, but experience emotion, as they “bear their disgrace with those who go down to the pit” (Ezekiel 32:24, NAB).

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

73

Moshe received proof of a spiritual afterlife in 1999

by moshe in

i have posted this experience of mine before- it's time to resurrect it again.. in 1999 i was in bed asleep and i had a dream- my father and i were shoping at a clothing store called fazios, that i hadn't been inside since i was a boy (closed for many years).

we were looking at some denim overhalls and in walks my mother and brother ( she died in 1991 and my brother had died five months previously).

they told my dad, it's time to go.

jonathan dough

Which Bible did you use, JD?

Isaiah 14:9-10

English Standard Version (ESV), but same with KJV and American Standard Version, and Young's Literal Translation, and the New American Bible.

Isaiah 29:4

Young's Literal Translation (YLT), New American Bible, KJV, New American Standard Bible.

Even Job, a blameless and upright man, acknowledged the existence of the departed dead, the shades, in Sheol, where, in his reply to Boldad's third speech he said, “The shades (rephaim) beneath writhe in terror, the waters and their inhabitants. Naked before him is the nether world (Sheol), and Abaddon has no covering.” (Job 26:5,6, NAB). Not only do shades exist, but they exhibit emotions and tremble.

Similarly, the inspired writers of the Book of Proverbs were fully aware that the departed dead, the shades, reside in Sheol, the nether world; they were not annihilated, they did not become extinct at death. Speaking of the ways of the adulteress, Proverbs 2:18 provides: “For her path sinks down to death, and her footsteps lead to the shades (rephaim) (NAB). Referring to those who live a life of folly, Proverbs 9:18 warns, “Little he knows that the shades are there, that in the depths of the nether world (sheol) are her guests” (NAB). And Proverbs 21:16 is an unambiguous warning, “The man who strays from the way of good sense will abide in the assembly of the shades (rephaim).

One common misconception is that Sheol (Hebrew) is a place where only the wicked, unredeemed go, but that is not the case (PBD at 784). The grieving patriarch Jacob was inconsolable when told of his son Joseph's (fabricated) death, stating, “No, I will go down mourning to my son in the nether world (Sheol) (Genesis 37:35). Jacob, son of Isaac and father of twelve sons who in turn would father the twelve tribes of Israel, believed his eleventh son, Joseph, was dead and departed to Sheol, not extinct, and his grief was such that he wished to join him. And Job, while enduring excruciating torment, pleaded to God for shelter in the nether world of Sheol. He did not want to go there to be tormented further, but to escape the agony and torment he was suffering on earth, and then return: “Oh, that you would hide me in the nether world and keep me sheltered till your wrath is past,” (Job 14:13). His agony was so great he wondered why he wasn't delivered a stillborn baby; then he would find rest in Sheol:” For then I would have lain down and been quiet; I would have slept; then I would have been at rest. (Job 3:13, ESV). One cannot be extinct and non-existent and yet enjoy restful sleep and later return to the world when God's wrath is over. It's not possible.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

73

Moshe received proof of a spiritual afterlife in 1999

by moshe in

i have posted this experience of mine before- it's time to resurrect it again.. in 1999 i was in bed asleep and i had a dream- my father and i were shoping at a clothing store called fazios, that i hadn't been inside since i was a boy (closed for many years).

we were looking at some denim overhalls and in walks my mother and brother ( she died in 1991 and my brother had died five months previously).

they told my dad, it's time to go.

jonathan dough

Jon, I agree with you.

Yes, the OT is clear on this.

Words other than nephesh in the Old Testament are used when referring to departed souls, such as rephaim, often translated in the English as 'shades' or 'healers.' Rephaim are ghosts according to Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testament Words (Vine's) and very much in existence according to the Old Testament as seen by Isaiah 14:9-10 (ESV), which completely disproves the Jehovah's Witnesses' theory that only extinction follows man at death. In speaking of the king of Babylon, Isaiah wrote:

9 Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them will answer
and say to you:
‘ You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’

This passage in and of itself proves the Jehovah's Witnesses wrong. Here, the shades obviously exist and were not extinguished into nothingness. They even speak, and therefore think. The Watchtower leadership is fully aware of this insurmountable obstacle to their theology. To circumvent the problem they translate rephaim as “those impotent in death,” but this does not help them in the slightest because it only describes one condition or attribute of the departed, that they are in a weakened condition, as seen by the answer the shades gave - that the king of Babylon would become weak like they had become. Nothing in these verses remotely suggests that these rephaim, or shades, don't exist; it's impossible, even if the shades are impotent with respect to their powers. Impotent does not mean annihilated, it does not mean nonexistent. Furthermore, Almighty God, YHWH, does not lie; his word is truth (Titus 1:2; John 17:17). If shades do not exist in the nether world of Sheol, he would never convey to his people that they did, and that they spoke and are conscious. God is telling us in no uncertain terms that an immaterial, conscious entity survives the death of the body.

That the departed dead spirits in Sheol are conscious and communicate and think is reiterated at Isaiah 29:4 (KJV) where God warned the inhabitants of Jerusalem of their impending destruction, writing through the prophet, “Prostrate you shall speak from the earth, and from the base dust your words shall come. Your voice shall be like a ghost's (Hebrew, owb) (Vine's at 178), from the earth, and your words like chirping from the dust.” (NAB). According to Vine's, “Owb means 'spirit' (of the dead); necromancy, pit. This word usually represents the troubled spirit (or spirits) of the dead. This meaning appears unquestionably in Isaiah 29:4” (ibid.).

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/i-soul-2.html

20

If you believe Jer 25:8-11 is evidence for 70-year desolation, then read Jer 25:12

by kepler in

about a year and a half ago (03-03-11), discussing what i had learned in ancient history studies with someone who had been close to me, i received this note in the mail explaining why nothing was possible other than what was taught in ministry school, a 2520-year sequence of events that culminated invisibly in 1914.. "this question was on my theocratic ministry school review that will be covered tonight:".

how does 2 chronicles 36:21 underscore the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at jeremiah 25: 8-11?

judahremaindesolate?

jonathan dough

I. The phrase "and all this land must become a devasted place, an object of astonishment" at Jeremiah 25:11 does not mean a) the land Judah, and Jerusalem, would exist without a single inhabitant, b) for a period of exactly 70 years, c) beginning with Jerusalem's destruction.

J. The devastated condition of Judah does not mean it existed in that state without a single inhabitant.
K. The devastation of Judah and Jerusalem at Jeremiah 25:11 referred to its devastated condition after Jerusalem's destruction and during the many years before that city fell.
L. The Bible shows that Judah was "a devastated place, an object of astonishment" during the years leading up to Jerusalem's destruction.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-5.html#I

20

If you believe Jer 25:8-11 is evidence for 70-year desolation, then read Jer 25:12

by kepler in

about a year and a half ago (03-03-11), discussing what i had learned in ancient history studies with someone who had been close to me, i received this note in the mail explaining why nothing was possible other than what was taught in ministry school, a 2520-year sequence of events that culminated invisibly in 1914.. "this question was on my theocratic ministry school review that will be covered tonight:".

how does 2 chronicles 36:21 underscore the fulfillment of the prophecy recorded at jeremiah 25: 8-11?

judahremaindesolate?

jonathan dough

E. The seventy-year prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 did not apply to Jerusalem and Judah alone but to all nations which fell under the domination of the Babylonian Empire. These nations as a unit, comprising the Babylonian Empire collectively, served the king(s) of Babylon seventy years.

http://144000.110mb.com/607/i-2.html#E

73

Moshe received proof of a spiritual afterlife in 1999

by moshe in

i have posted this experience of mine before- it's time to resurrect it again.. in 1999 i was in bed asleep and i had a dream- my father and i were shoping at a clothing store called fazios, that i hadn't been inside since i was a boy (closed for many years).

we were looking at some denim overhalls and in walks my mother and brother ( she died in 1991 and my brother had died five months previously).

they told my dad, it's time to go.

jonathan dough

Immediately, I was awakened by the sound of my telephone ringing- it was the hospital. The nurse said my father had suffered a heart attack, he was unconsious and I needed to come to the emergency room asap- he might not live - I drove the two hours to the hosiptal and sat by his bed for the next 24 hours- he did recover and lived for another three years-

There is a spirit world, I don't know why, but I know it exists.

Of course there is a spirit world, it's called the 'intermediate state' and I just finished writing a 12,000-word detailed paper outlining the biblical proof. The JWs don't have a leg to stand on, either, in this regard. In doing my research I was shocked how weak their argument is, that man does not have a soul (spirit) that survives the body at death. The evidence is overwhelming.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

7

Soul

by on the rocks in

jw
friends

how many of you since leaving the wt now beleive in a soul that will survive your physical body?

any thoughts?.

jonathan dough

How many of you since leaving the WT now beleive in a soul that will survive your physical body? Any thoughts?

The biblical proof in the OT and the NT that a soul survives the physical body is overwhelming. Christendom has this right.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

31

How old is your "soul"?

by obiwan in

i think i have mentioned this before, but i'm curious.

my girlfriend and i had a discussion with some friends about how old they felt thier souls were.

for myself, i have the feeling with alot of things in life that i have done them before.

jonathan dough

Traditional Christianity teaches soul creationism, that God creates a person's soul (spirit) and injects it into the body at conception.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

7

Is this WTS teaching a contradiction?

by Honesty in

the wts does not believe the soul is anything other than a person's whole being but they teach that the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven as immortal beings.

can anyone explain what they really are trying to say?

i hope this makes a little bit of sense.

jonathan dough

The WTS does not believe the soul is anything other than a person's whole being but they teach that the 144,000 are resurrected to Heaven as immortal beings. Can anyone explain what they really are trying to say?

You're absolutely right. It is a contradiction and pure hypocracy. I just completed an in-depth paper on the subject.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

While traditional Christians teach that man has a soul - the non-material essence and ego of man which survives death and can go to heaven as an invisible spirit creature - the Jehovah's Witnesses believe, and teach, that no such soul exists; that upon death all of man, every vestige of the human being, including his soul, is annihilated and becomes extinct. They believe that Christendom's notion of a soul, particularly an immortal soul, is the work of the devil and a myth devised by Satan to mislead mankind. However, on examining the Jehovah's Witnesses' own theories in this regard, the Watchtower Society's double standard becomes self-evident because they also teach that their resurrected 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses (who alone go to heaven) began to be resurrected to heaven as invisible spirit creatures in 1918, and today are being resurrected as invisible spirit creatures bound for heaven, writing, “He [Christ] went to prepare a heavenly place for his associate heirs, ‘Christ’s body,’ for they too will be invisible spirit creatures” (Let God Be True, p.138).

In other words, in the traditional Christian world a redeemed man dies and his invisible soul (spirit) goes to an intermediate state where it waits. In the Watchtower World a man dies (one of the so-called 144,000) and his invisible spirit goes to a heavenly afterlife also. Regardless of the labels the Jehovah's Witnesses place on this process, such as calling theirs a “resurrection,” the point is that the process is exactly the same: man dies, invisible spirit goes to the afterlife.

With the exception of a few irrelevant labels placed on the process by the Jehovah's Witnesses, there is absolutely no difference in the core concept of a soul (spirit) surviving the body, except the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that with respect to mainstream Christians it doesn't happen at all, and can't happen, and is a lie perpetuated by Satan, but with respect to their 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses it is happening as we speak, and is sanctioned and performed by God Almighty. It is the extent of such blatant hypocrisy which prompted me to explore in detail the Jehovah's Witnesses' false teaching that man does not have a soul (spirit) that survives death.

26

~Please help answer this question about a Watchtower doctrine~

by FlyingHighNow in

does anyone know what year the wtbts started teaching the mortality of the soul doctrine?

did it preceed the earthly hope doctrine?

i'm curious to know if the wtbts started teaching that your body is your soul, so that they could explain what happens to those with an earthly hope or who look forward to an earthly, fleshly resurrection.. knowing the answer to this question would help me let go of that brainwashing, that we don't have a separate, spirtual soul.

jonathan dough

Flying High Now: Can some of you give some thoughts and observations on this doctrine of body=soul?

Here is a 30-page treatise on this precise issue, defending the existence of a soul, and generally finding fault with the Jw doctrine on this issue. It's hot off the press.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html